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[Music]

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it was basically a cube with inside of

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sphere where the points of the cube

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were touching outside of a sphere

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[Music]

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so this isn't anything that just is

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limited to the united states it's a

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i am george knapp listening to that ufo

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podcast and having one hell of a good

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hi everyone and welcome back to that ufo

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podcast my name is andy and very excited

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to be speaking with the guest i have on

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the podcast with me this week he's been

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a big name in the field of ufos or uaps

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over the last couple of years since an

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article he co-published with leslie

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keane and helen cooper came out in

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december 2017. i've got distinguished

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lecturer award-winning journalist and

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author of many books including the most

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recent the believer alien encounters

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hard science and the passion of john

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mack joining me now is ralph blumenthal

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ralph welcome to the podcast thank you

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andy pleasure to be here it's great to

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finally speak to you you're someone i've

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been kind of keeping an eye on for a

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while like many of us have that i've got

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an interest in in uf4 uaps and obviously

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your work you've just told me on our

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previous chat that you were with the new

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york times for was it over 40 years you

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said yes 45 years

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and that's a huge reputable

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media juggernaut especially outside the

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us it's really well known as well

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so for you to be publishing what you've

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done with your colleagues on the subject

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at that level has been you know greatly

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appreciated by people like myself and

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and so many others as well so thank you

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for uh for a kick off um

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ralph so you your name came onto the

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scene for me and so many other people in

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december 2017 when you co-published the

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article in the new york times with

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helene cooper and leslie kane like i

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said did you expect that article to have

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the lasting impact that it has had

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no we really didn't uh it came at the

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right time i think the public was ready

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for a breakthrough the government i

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believe was also ready for a

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breakthrough and it gave them some

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confidence to start you know coming

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clean or cleaner on the subject um but

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uh we knew it was a good story we didn't

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really know how it would change the

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paradigm

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had you ever tried to publish an article

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like this in the past whether it was

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with leslie and helen or other others

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before that

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no and not on ufos i mean i've you know

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in 45 years at the new york times i

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published a lot of articles

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investigative articles some

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controversial articles

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um all kinds of subjects uh

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but mostly on

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you know very well-grounded earthly

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subjects like

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the mafia nazi war criminals

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corruption

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politicians uh

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government etc uh the arts so i i hadn't

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ventured into this field before but we

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uh helene i mean leslie got a tip that

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something was going on in washington and

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she went down there and found that

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there had been this

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secret pentagon office investigating

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ufos which no one knew about called atip

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the advanced aerospace threat

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identification program

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um and um

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so

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you know we talked about it we brought

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it to the new york times they loved the

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story everything was on the record

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we had the head of the program who was

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resigning because he wasn't getting

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enough support from the defense

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department

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uh so we we knew we had a good story and

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the times put it on the front page that

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sunday so it got a huge reaction

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you've made that sound really easy but

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given the nature of the subject and it's

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obviously been reported on very

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seriously very well you're still

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ultimately talking about something that

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has the stigma of decades of aliens

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little green men flying saucers was

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there much pushback at all even though

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they did like the story in getting that

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over the line well we weren't talking

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about aliens uh that's a whole other

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uh issue that would take a lot you know

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more proof and more proof than we really

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have to to get it into the new york

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times but the ufo issue was was much

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simpler because there were navy videos

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that we got for the first time that

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showed these objects were real the navy

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had recorded them on

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um on radar and there were

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thermal imaging pictures of them they

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were even these objects were eyeballed

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by various uh fighter pilots who talked

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about it so

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this was really the first time we got

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confirmation that these objects were

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physically real we don't know anything

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about them where they come from who's in

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charge

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how they you know perform their

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extraordinary aerodynamics but at least

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we knew for the first time that they

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were

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physical and real and

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as i said we had everything on the

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record we had documents um we had the

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navy videos so given all that it was not

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a hard sell to the new york times

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was there anything that you almost

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managed to get into the article that you

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any of the three of you really wanted to

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but it just didn't quite make it for any

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sort of reason or was that the full body

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of work

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well we published a number of articles

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we went on from there to talk about

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um

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some of the pilots who had the sightings

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we interviewed them and then we did a

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third article on briefings of uh um

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congressional committees um

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on possible materials that have been

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recovered

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so um

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you know there's always stuff you you

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gather as a journalist that um you try

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to get into a story but that editors

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think is not

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um you know sufficiently um documented

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so there's the usual give and take we're

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used to that you know we're professional

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journalists

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so but there was nothing that you know

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we were dying to get into the paper that

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they wouldn't let us print uh it was

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just a question of deciding you know

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what was sufficiently backed up and as i

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said we always had on the record sources

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um we always came with documents we knew

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what was required so um i can't say that

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um

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as i said we didn't get everything in

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the paper that we we gathered but we

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never do

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that's really good to hear now you

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mentioned those follow-up articles as

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well which are equally as important

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because you're you're adding to that

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original piece of work now the first

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article in december 2017 arrived with a

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lot of surprise and a huge huge fanfare

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and especially to people who follow ufos

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the follow-up articles particularly the

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one in july 2020 um got a little bit of

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hype online as the the idea that the

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story was coming seemed to break and

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there was a lot of hype from a few

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people online that talked about

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potential crash retrieval programs and

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what may or may not be included in the

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article do you feel that hype preceding

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the article

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hampered what eventually came out or did

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it have any impact at all it did have an

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impact and it did impede us because

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all that chatter on the internet about

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what the article would say

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and the people we were talking to

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um was a major distraction um

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uh it raised expectations uh beyond what

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you know we were

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prepared to fulfill in terms of you know

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documentation so it was it was very

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difficult operating in that environment

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i mean the internet is a huge

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echo chamber and people pick up things

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and there's rumors and

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um

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it was very difficult to contact sources

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and and get their

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you know candid responses knowing that

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everything

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you know was going to be uh scrutinized

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and and and uh exaggerated and you know

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it made it made it very difficult but we

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stuck to what we were there to do we we

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kept our eye on the ball and um the

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article was fine um

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you know

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as i say there's always more material

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you gather that you you can't get in uh

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because of space or because you don't

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have the the backup that you really want

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but um

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it did not help that everything was

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being picked apart

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what would your advice be to people

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online and it was particularly twitter

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that's what we're talking about here and

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that's something i i'm on constantly as

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well what would your advice be to those

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that are looking forward to people like

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yourself producing this work

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about not getting too excited or too

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hyped up before an article comes out

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well

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you know

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what you can say as a blogger and what

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you can say in the new york times is not

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necessarily the same thing um the

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you know the new york times has the

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reputation it has because uh it is

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conservative it only you know covers

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things that can be verified there's no

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room for speculation there's no room for

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anonymous sources

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if it's not you know national security

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reporting is somewhat different you

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always have to take information

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you know um

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uh anonymously in

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cases like that people don't talk on the

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record but in other stories you reduce

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the

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you've got to

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you know give

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understand that the new york times is a

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special kind of paper and the washington

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post and wall street journal and uh they

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they stick to you know very hard

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reporting and and hard facts that can be

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verified so um

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it doesn't help them to be uh you know

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throwing out ideas and speculation of

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what they should be covering and why

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don't they do it this way and why didn't

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they talk about it say this or that

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it's a different standard of

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proof for the new york times and

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people should understand that

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now the the hype surrounded the

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potential disclosure of a crash

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retrieval or crash retrieval programs

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that may or may not have existed

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particularly within the us government

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did that of our and i'm asking was there

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any smoke where there was fire was that

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something that was ever a possibility

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well the truth is that though that um

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that's one of the areas that remains

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highly classified rightly or wrongly

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the government does not discuss has not

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put out documents about any materials

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that may or may not have been recovered

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00:11:07,590 --> 00:11:05,360
any crashes that may have been you know

283
00:11:09,829 --> 00:11:07,600
documented so you're dealing with an

284
00:11:12,069 --> 00:11:09,839
area here that is still largely

285
00:11:15,030 --> 00:11:12,079
classified and we can't

286
00:11:15,910 --> 00:11:15,040
you know get into the business of uh of

287
00:11:17,990 --> 00:11:15,920
uh

288
00:11:20,310 --> 00:11:18,000
publicizing um

289
00:11:21,910 --> 00:11:20,320
uh classified documents we don't do that

290
00:11:24,069 --> 00:11:21,920
in the new york times unless there's

291
00:11:27,269 --> 00:11:24,079
some kind of overriding compelling you

292
00:11:29,190 --> 00:11:27,279
know public interest reason to do it uh

293
00:11:32,550 --> 00:11:29,200
we don't just put out things that are

294
00:11:34,630 --> 00:11:32,560
classified for the fun of doing it um

295
00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:34,640
so we're very restricted in what we what

296
00:11:38,550 --> 00:11:36,959
we're able to get uh

297
00:11:41,190 --> 00:11:38,560
what we're able to find in the first

298
00:11:43,829 --> 00:11:41,200
place and once we find it maybe talking

299
00:11:45,269 --> 00:11:43,839
to people uh what we're able to

300
00:11:47,190 --> 00:11:45,279
you know to publish

301
00:11:49,509 --> 00:11:47,200
so um

302
00:11:50,389 --> 00:11:49,519
you know yeah there's a lot of smoke uh

303
00:11:53,190 --> 00:11:50,399
but

304
00:11:55,910 --> 00:11:53,200
how much fire there is is very difficult

305
00:11:58,310 --> 00:11:55,920
to to determine considering how much of

306
00:12:00,629 --> 00:11:58,320
that area is classified

307
00:12:03,190 --> 00:12:00,639
do you think that as an amount of

308
00:12:05,030 --> 00:12:03,200
source material or evidence you could

309
00:12:07,350 --> 00:12:05,040
take to the new york times or an editor

310
00:12:09,509 --> 00:12:07,360
there that they would run a headline

311
00:12:12,069 --> 00:12:09,519
that said something like crash retrieval

312
00:12:14,310 --> 00:12:12,079
programs or is that still too

313
00:12:16,230 --> 00:12:14,320
out there a subject

314
00:12:17,829 --> 00:12:16,240
well i mean theoretically they would but

315
00:12:20,629 --> 00:12:17,839
it you know it depends on what you can

316
00:12:22,389 --> 00:12:20,639
get on the on the record and uh in this

317
00:12:24,949 --> 00:12:22,399
field as you probably know a lot of

318
00:12:27,590 --> 00:12:24,959
documents are dubious even things that

319
00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:27,600
look authentic have been tampered with

320
00:12:31,910 --> 00:12:30,320
the government has a long history of

321
00:12:34,470 --> 00:12:31,920
disinformation

322
00:12:36,870 --> 00:12:34,480
um in this field they put out things

323
00:12:39,350 --> 00:12:36,880
that are not accurate in order to maybe

324
00:12:42,389 --> 00:12:39,360
mislead adversaries

325
00:12:43,269 --> 00:12:42,399
to put the best face on it

326
00:12:46,790 --> 00:12:43,279
so

327
00:12:48,470 --> 00:12:46,800
it's a very difficult you know area and

328
00:12:50,629 --> 00:12:48,480
even a document when you think you have

329
00:12:53,350 --> 00:12:50,639
documentation

330
00:12:54,790 --> 00:12:53,360
it may not be accurate so um

331
00:12:56,470 --> 00:12:54,800
you know i don't know what when we'll

332
00:12:58,790 --> 00:12:56,480
see a headline like you said in the new

333
00:13:01,269 --> 00:12:58,800
york times but it's got to depend on on

334
00:13:03,269 --> 00:13:01,279
what we can confirm and maybe someday

335
00:13:05,509 --> 00:13:03,279
you know we can do that

336
00:13:07,590 --> 00:13:05,519
and one more question on that subject

337
00:13:09,670 --> 00:13:07,600
before we get into your book are we any

338
00:13:11,350 --> 00:13:09,680
closer to having another article

339
00:13:13,350 --> 00:13:11,360
published by yourself or others on the

340
00:13:15,030 --> 00:13:13,360
subject in the new york times well i

341
00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:15,040
can't talk about you know what we're

342
00:13:19,030 --> 00:13:17,120
doing now but we we're always on the

343
00:13:20,710 --> 00:13:19,040
lookout for more news to report it's a

344
00:13:22,389 --> 00:13:20,720
field obviously that interests us it

345
00:13:23,670 --> 00:13:22,399
interests the new york times

346
00:13:25,670 --> 00:13:23,680
and um

347
00:13:27,670 --> 00:13:25,680
so people just have to be patient we're

348
00:13:29,590 --> 00:13:27,680
doing reporting all the time

349
00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:29,600
and uh we'll see

350
00:13:32,790 --> 00:13:31,040
well listen the work you're doing and

351
00:13:34,550 --> 00:13:32,800
leslie and helen and others is really

352
00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:34,560
appreciated by myself and and many

353
00:13:39,189 --> 00:13:36,480
others in the community as well so so

354
00:13:41,189 --> 00:13:39,199
don't let up is greatly appreciated

355
00:13:42,710 --> 00:13:41,199
that leads me on to your book ralph so

356
00:13:44,870 --> 00:13:42,720
your recent book as i mentioned at the

357
00:13:47,269 --> 00:13:44,880
start the believer alien encounters hard

358
00:13:48,629 --> 00:13:47,279
science and the passion of john mack can

359
00:13:50,870 --> 00:13:48,639
you tell the listeners a little bit

360
00:13:53,590 --> 00:13:50,880
about the book and how it came about and

361
00:13:55,829 --> 00:13:53,600
just for those unaware who was john mack

362
00:13:59,670 --> 00:13:55,839
okay so john mack was a harvard

363
00:14:02,150 --> 00:13:59,680
psychiatrist very esteemed

364
00:14:03,910 --> 00:14:02,160
he had written a pulitzer prize-winning

365
00:14:06,230 --> 00:14:03,920
biography of

366
00:14:07,990 --> 00:14:06,240
lawrence of arabia he had written books

367
00:14:10,949 --> 00:14:08,000
on nightmares he had written books on

368
00:14:14,550 --> 00:14:10,959
childhood development on a teenage

369
00:14:16,629 --> 00:14:14,560
suicide very accomplished and through a

370
00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:16,639
series of circumstances that i outline

371
00:14:23,590 --> 00:14:21,440
in the book um he became aware in 1990

372
00:14:26,069 --> 00:14:23,600
that people of all different backgrounds

373
00:14:29,110 --> 00:14:26,079
and ages were coming forward with

374
00:14:32,629 --> 00:14:29,120
stories of interactions with alien alien

375
00:14:33,910 --> 00:14:32,639
beings being taken onto spacecraft

376
00:14:36,230 --> 00:14:33,920
often for

377
00:14:39,269 --> 00:14:36,240
bizarre pseudomedical experiments

378
00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:39,279
sometimes with a reproductive purpose to

379
00:14:44,710 --> 00:14:42,000
produce a hybrid race

380
00:14:47,110 --> 00:14:44,720
women were harvested and getting their

381
00:14:48,310 --> 00:14:47,120
eggs harvested and men had their sperm

382
00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:48,320
taken

383
00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:50,320
for the production of these hybrid

384
00:14:52,949 --> 00:14:51,760
beings

385
00:14:54,870 --> 00:14:52,959
these were the stories people were

386
00:14:56,949 --> 00:14:54,880
telling and he was

387
00:14:58,949 --> 00:14:56,959
fascinated as a psychiatrist and the

388
00:15:00,470 --> 00:14:58,959
first thing he wanted to know were these

389
00:15:02,150 --> 00:15:00,480
people saying

390
00:15:05,509 --> 00:15:02,160
and once he concluded that they were

391
00:15:08,230 --> 00:15:05,519
absolutely sane and that they were not

392
00:15:10,230 --> 00:15:08,240
fabricating these stories they were not

393
00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:10,240
you know making them up they were not

394
00:15:14,949 --> 00:15:12,720
hoaxing the public they were in fact

395
00:15:17,269 --> 00:15:14,959
quite shy about what had happened and

396
00:15:19,829 --> 00:15:17,279
and quite fearful

397
00:15:22,150 --> 00:15:19,839
um he decided to investigate it so

398
00:15:25,110 --> 00:15:22,160
that's the basic premise of the book how

399
00:15:27,670 --> 00:15:25,120
this eminent scientist got uh captivated

400
00:15:30,870 --> 00:15:27,680
i like to say not captured

401
00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:30,880
uh but captivated by this subject uh

402
00:15:33,910 --> 00:15:32,240
which was a

403
00:15:37,670 --> 00:15:33,920
you know subject that provoked a lot of

404
00:15:39,670 --> 00:15:37,680
ridicule at harvard and and elsewhere

405
00:15:42,470 --> 00:15:39,680
but he was courageous enough to pursue

406
00:15:45,030 --> 00:15:42,480
it because it really demands answers

407
00:15:46,710 --> 00:15:45,040
we to this day it's a mystery

408
00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:46,720
and um

409
00:15:50,230 --> 00:15:48,480
so that's what got me interested i came

410
00:15:51,670 --> 00:15:50,240
across one of his books

411
00:15:54,150 --> 00:15:51,680
and

412
00:15:55,829 --> 00:15:54,160
i was also enthralled by the idea that

413
00:15:57,590 --> 00:15:55,839
this eminent uh

414
00:15:59,990 --> 00:15:57,600
psychiatrist harvard pillar of the

415
00:16:02,069 --> 00:16:00,000
harvard establishment would get involved

416
00:16:04,150 --> 00:16:02,079
in a subject like this so i i was

417
00:16:05,990 --> 00:16:04,160
captivated like he was

418
00:16:08,310 --> 00:16:06,000
and and followed his career and i got

419
00:16:11,269 --> 00:16:08,320
access to all his private papers and his

420
00:16:15,670 --> 00:16:11,279
archives and his articles and his videos

421
00:16:18,629 --> 00:16:15,680
and um worked for 16 years on this book

422
00:16:20,470 --> 00:16:18,639
why now is it just it's taken you the 16

423
00:16:22,870 --> 00:16:20,480
years to be happy with the work to

424
00:16:24,550 --> 00:16:22,880
release it or do you think the timing

425
00:16:26,470 --> 00:16:24,560
has played a part in that as to what's

426
00:16:28,069 --> 00:16:26,480
going on just now in the world no i

427
00:16:31,030 --> 00:16:28,079
didn't time it for any particular

428
00:16:34,069 --> 00:16:31,040
purpose i i started writing it after

429
00:16:35,430 --> 00:16:34,079
john mack was run down in london he was

430
00:16:37,910 --> 00:16:35,440
killed in a

431
00:16:40,230 --> 00:16:37,920
car accident by a man who had too much

432
00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:40,240
to drink there was no conspiracy it was

433
00:16:45,110 --> 00:16:43,680
not an assassination as the rumor mill

434
00:16:46,870 --> 00:16:45,120
initially had it

435
00:16:48,150 --> 00:16:46,880
um

436
00:16:50,150 --> 00:16:48,160
he was just

437
00:16:51,189 --> 00:16:50,160
looked the wrong way as americans do in

438
00:16:54,949 --> 00:16:51,199
london

439
00:16:56,470 --> 00:16:54,959
and uh that's when i decided i was gonna

440
00:16:58,629 --> 00:16:56,480
you know spend more time looking into

441
00:17:00,310 --> 00:16:58,639
his his life and it took me a while to

442
00:17:02,310 --> 00:17:00,320
get the family to

443
00:17:04,309 --> 00:17:02,320
give me access to all his papers which

444
00:17:06,069 --> 00:17:04,319
they did exclusively

445
00:17:07,510 --> 00:17:06,079
and um

446
00:17:09,270 --> 00:17:07,520
and it just took you know it was a

447
00:17:12,069 --> 00:17:09,280
complicated story i went through many

448
00:17:14,150 --> 00:17:12,079
many drafts because i had to decide you

449
00:17:17,029 --> 00:17:14,160
know what was uh what was real in the

450
00:17:19,829 --> 00:17:17,039
story what was worth publishing uh how

451
00:17:21,909 --> 00:17:19,839
much to credit his research how much to

452
00:17:23,829 --> 00:17:21,919
be independent and it was a difficult

453
00:17:26,309 --> 00:17:23,839
balancing act

454
00:17:28,950 --> 00:17:26,319
and it's just the time it took

455
00:17:30,549 --> 00:17:28,960
books take a lot of time and

456
00:17:31,510 --> 00:17:30,559
i think it came out at a good time

457
00:17:32,950 --> 00:17:31,520
because

458
00:17:34,230 --> 00:17:32,960
there is great interest now in the whole

459
00:17:36,390 --> 00:17:34,240
subject

460
00:17:38,310 --> 00:17:36,400
what was your perception of the alien

461
00:17:39,750 --> 00:17:38,320
abduction phenomenon before you wrote

462
00:17:41,909 --> 00:17:39,760
the book

463
00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:41,919
well like most people i guess i thought

464
00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:44,240
it was kind of crazy um supermarket

465
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:46,720
tabloid stuff um

466
00:17:52,150 --> 00:17:50,400
and i didn't pay much attention to it

467
00:17:53,909 --> 00:17:52,160
but i mean i had read science fiction

468
00:17:56,310 --> 00:17:53,919
when i was growing up like you know a

469
00:17:59,029 --> 00:17:56,320
lot of people in my generation did but i

470
00:18:01,350 --> 00:17:59,039
didn't think about it much

471
00:18:03,190 --> 00:18:01,360
and uh i i think everyone's first

472
00:18:05,029 --> 00:18:03,200
reaction when hearing this as it was

473
00:18:08,230 --> 00:18:05,039
john mack's first reaction is this can't

474
00:18:10,710 --> 00:18:08,240
possibly be happening but um there's an

475
00:18:13,669 --> 00:18:10,720
epigram to my book that i use at the

476
00:18:16,549 --> 00:18:13,679
very beginning where a british scientist

477
00:18:18,070 --> 00:18:16,559
in the 1870s was sent to

478
00:18:21,270 --> 00:18:18,080
investigate some of these strange

479
00:18:23,430 --> 00:18:21,280
paranormal events levitation and musical

480
00:18:25,430 --> 00:18:23,440
instruments that played themselves and

481
00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:25,440
he was sent to debunk that

482
00:18:29,909 --> 00:18:27,760
and he came back and he saw it with his

483
00:18:32,789 --> 00:18:29,919
own eyes that you know it was real it

484
00:18:36,070 --> 00:18:32,799
was happening and he wrote i never said

485
00:18:38,470 --> 00:18:36,080
it was possible i only said it was real

486
00:18:40,950 --> 00:18:38,480
and um i guess that's the best way to

487
00:18:43,669 --> 00:18:40,960
describe this whole phenomenon there's

488
00:18:45,830 --> 00:18:43,679
nothing about it that seems possible

489
00:18:47,750 --> 00:18:45,840
and yet you listen to the accounts and

490
00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:47,760
you do the research and you hear what

491
00:18:52,549 --> 00:18:50,160
people say and how authentic the

492
00:18:55,350 --> 00:18:52,559
experience is to them and in some cases

493
00:18:58,150 --> 00:18:55,360
is fragmentary you know

494
00:19:00,070 --> 00:18:58,160
independent evidence other witnesses or

495
00:19:01,430 --> 00:19:00,080
marks on the body afterwards that can't

496
00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:01,440
be explained

497
00:19:04,950 --> 00:19:03,760
things like that um

498
00:19:07,270 --> 00:19:04,960
um

499
00:19:09,350 --> 00:19:07,280
that you you know you do you

500
00:19:11,110 --> 00:19:09,360
come to understand that these things

501
00:19:13,669 --> 00:19:11,120
have happened on some

502
00:19:15,029 --> 00:19:13,679
on some level of reality not everyday

503
00:19:17,909 --> 00:19:15,039
reality but

504
00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:17,919
um and in some dimension these things

505
00:19:22,870 --> 00:19:20,720
actually physically happen

506
00:19:24,390 --> 00:19:22,880
was there any particular account you

507
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:24,400
heard from one of the witnesses or

508
00:19:28,630 --> 00:19:26,720
within your research that you

509
00:19:30,070 --> 00:19:28,640
particularly stood out to you as being

510
00:19:33,830 --> 00:19:30,080
very powerful

511
00:19:35,750 --> 00:19:33,840
well i interviewed a lot of experiencers

512
00:19:36,549 --> 00:19:35,760
for my research

513
00:19:38,789 --> 00:19:36,559
and

514
00:19:42,390 --> 00:19:38,799
it was interesting that all the stories

515
00:19:44,950 --> 00:19:42,400
uh were basically consistent in in the

516
00:19:45,909 --> 00:19:44,960
in the broad outlines but they were all

517
00:19:48,549 --> 00:19:45,919
different

518
00:19:49,270 --> 00:19:48,559
uh in detail so it was not as if they're

519
00:19:51,029 --> 00:19:49,280
all

520
00:19:53,190 --> 00:19:51,039
you know reading off the same playbook

521
00:19:56,150 --> 00:19:53,200
or reciting some script you know that

522
00:19:58,310 --> 00:19:56,160
they're all told to to follow um the

523
00:20:00,310 --> 00:19:58,320
stories had an authenticity to them the

524
00:20:02,710 --> 00:20:00,320
people i that i interviewed and that

525
00:20:04,390 --> 00:20:02,720
john mack interviewed were also very

526
00:20:05,990 --> 00:20:04,400
credible people from all walks of life

527
00:20:07,430 --> 00:20:06,000
just the other day i interviewed a

528
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:07,440
paralegal

529
00:20:12,870 --> 00:20:10,640
um with you know a very solid grounding

530
00:20:14,950 --> 00:20:12,880
in research and

531
00:20:18,630 --> 00:20:14,960
you know professional life and she told

532
00:20:21,110 --> 00:20:18,640
me the most fantastic story about being

533
00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:21,120
you know abducted with a girlfriend from

534
00:20:26,789 --> 00:20:23,760
their van in in arizona

535
00:20:30,710 --> 00:20:26,799
and um it was witnessed to some extent

536
00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:30,720
by her friend and stories like this each

537
00:20:33,830 --> 00:20:31,840
one

538
00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:33,840
somewhat different but again basically

539
00:20:40,070 --> 00:20:36,640
consistent uh so powerful

540
00:20:41,909 --> 00:20:40,080
um that um

541
00:20:44,230 --> 00:20:41,919
yes i'm convinced that that there's

542
00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:44,240
something to it i i i don't solve the

543
00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:48,240
mystery but i don't write it off as as a

544
00:20:52,310 --> 00:20:50,320
as an illusion

545
00:20:54,310 --> 00:20:52,320
was was there anything you didn't manage

546
00:20:56,710 --> 00:20:54,320
to fit into the final draft of the book

547
00:20:58,390 --> 00:20:56,720
that you you wish you had or just for

548
00:21:01,029 --> 00:20:58,400
for editing reasons you didn't manage to

549
00:21:03,750 --> 00:21:01,039
get it in there well you know book

550
00:21:05,430 --> 00:21:03,760
editors don't edit anymore so i put in

551
00:21:07,270 --> 00:21:05,440
the book everything i wanted to put in

552
00:21:07,909 --> 00:21:07,280
nobody told me i couldn't put something

553
00:21:10,230 --> 00:21:07,919
in

554
00:21:12,470 --> 00:21:10,240
uh there's always a limitation on space

555
00:21:14,630 --> 00:21:12,480
and you know after a while you can't

556
00:21:17,029 --> 00:21:14,640
keep telling you know different stories

557
00:21:18,950 --> 00:21:17,039
endlessly because rita would be put to

558
00:21:21,909 --> 00:21:18,960
sleep and not by

559
00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:21,919
by alien beings but just by

560
00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:23,840
the you know boredom of the same story

561
00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:26,320
so you try to keep it lively by

562
00:21:30,710 --> 00:21:29,440
you know boiling down the stories um

563
00:21:32,390 --> 00:21:30,720
so uh

564
00:21:34,230 --> 00:21:32,400
you know i can't say that there's

565
00:21:36,230 --> 00:21:34,240
something that i wished i'd put into the

566
00:21:38,149 --> 00:21:36,240
book that i didn't get a chance to put

567
00:21:40,149 --> 00:21:38,159
in i put in everything i wanted but

568
00:21:42,789 --> 00:21:40,159
there's so much more to tell

569
00:21:45,590 --> 00:21:42,799
um and that's why

570
00:21:47,909 --> 00:21:45,600
anybody who professes to be a skeptic or

571
00:21:50,149 --> 00:21:47,919
a debunker has to do the research it's

572
00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:50,159
not enough to say oh this is crazy this

573
00:21:54,789 --> 00:21:52,320
can't be true of course it can't be true

574
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:54,799
um and yet these stories are so

575
00:22:00,549 --> 00:21:57,520
compelling um and the fragmentary

576
00:22:02,710 --> 00:22:00,559
evidence is so convincing

577
00:22:03,669 --> 00:22:02,720
that you come away thinking you know

578
00:22:05,750 --> 00:22:03,679
there's

579
00:22:07,110 --> 00:22:05,760
something here that's penetrating our

580
00:22:08,149 --> 00:22:07,120
our reality

581
00:22:10,789 --> 00:22:08,159
um

582
00:22:13,190 --> 00:22:10,799
you know

583
00:22:16,070 --> 00:22:13,200
you can't tell the whole the whole story

584
00:22:17,430 --> 00:22:16,080
of abduction in one book there's

585
00:22:19,510 --> 00:22:17,440
you have to do a lot of research but i

586
00:22:24,390 --> 00:22:19,520
think i i got the highlights and i got

587
00:22:28,390 --> 00:22:25,590
do you

588
00:22:30,310 --> 00:22:28,400
believe that there is an alien

589
00:22:31,990 --> 00:22:30,320
phenomenon at play when it comes to

590
00:22:33,909 --> 00:22:32,000
abductions or do you think it could be

591
00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:33,919
something else

592
00:22:37,430 --> 00:22:35,520
well i um

593
00:22:40,149 --> 00:22:37,440
you know i i take the position that john

594
00:22:41,830 --> 00:22:40,159
mack took uh i thought he was very wise

595
00:22:44,390 --> 00:22:41,840
in this he said listen if there's

596
00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:44,400
another explanation i'm happy to hear it

597
00:22:48,870 --> 00:22:46,320
um but he went through the whole

598
00:22:50,310 --> 00:22:48,880
phenomenon he said the stories were

599
00:22:51,909 --> 00:22:50,320
consistent

600
00:22:53,350 --> 00:22:51,919
and yet different enough to be

601
00:22:55,110 --> 00:22:53,360
individual

602
00:22:56,789 --> 00:22:55,120
that they were told by all kinds of

603
00:22:59,270 --> 00:22:56,799
different people including children as

604
00:23:01,190 --> 00:22:59,280
young as two years old uh who said

605
00:23:03,590 --> 00:23:01,200
things like a little man take me up in

606
00:23:05,510 --> 00:23:03,600
the sky i fly in the sky

607
00:23:07,990 --> 00:23:05,520
um so these

608
00:23:09,750 --> 00:23:08,000
you can you couldn't say these kids were

609
00:23:11,590 --> 00:23:09,760
influenced by the books they had read or

610
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:11,600
the movies they had seen they were two

611
00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:16,870
some of them came back with scars that

612
00:23:21,110 --> 00:23:19,120
they didn't remember having beforehand

613
00:23:22,549 --> 00:23:21,120
there were areas outside their home that

614
00:23:24,710 --> 00:23:22,559
seemed to be

615
00:23:25,750 --> 00:23:24,720
show signs of something heavy landing

616
00:23:28,470 --> 00:23:25,760
there the

617
00:23:31,909 --> 00:23:28,480
foliage was disturbed

618
00:23:34,149 --> 00:23:31,919
they were in some cases witnesses

619
00:23:34,950 --> 00:23:34,159
reporting people missing at a time when

620
00:23:37,590 --> 00:23:34,960
they

621
00:23:39,990 --> 00:23:37,600
felt themselves abducted so putting all

622
00:23:41,190 --> 00:23:40,000
this um together

623
00:23:45,190 --> 00:23:41,200
um

624
00:23:47,029 --> 00:23:45,200
it it does present the picture that

625
00:23:49,430 --> 00:23:47,039
these people are telling the truth as

626
00:23:51,190 --> 00:23:49,440
they experienced it and as john mack

627
00:23:53,430 --> 00:23:51,200
said um

628
00:23:54,470 --> 00:23:53,440
he's never found an explanation better

629
00:23:56,470 --> 00:23:54,480
than that

630
00:23:59,590 --> 00:23:56,480
than the obvious one that they were

631
00:24:01,750 --> 00:23:59,600
telling the truth on some level now

632
00:24:03,510 --> 00:24:01,760
again it's not in

633
00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:03,520
happening in everyday reality you don't

634
00:24:07,029 --> 00:24:05,120
look outside the window and see people

635
00:24:09,990 --> 00:24:07,039
being abducted and spaceships landing

636
00:24:10,710 --> 00:24:10,000
it's happening in some liminal reality

637
00:24:13,909 --> 00:24:10,720
but

638
00:24:16,310 --> 00:24:13,919
that doesn't mean it's not happening um

639
00:24:18,950 --> 00:24:16,320
and it's it's penetrating our reality in

640
00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:18,960
some ways we don't understand but no

641
00:24:24,149 --> 00:24:21,360
other explanation has has come come

642
00:24:27,110 --> 00:24:24,159
forth to be as convincing as the ones

643
00:24:29,029 --> 00:24:27,120
that these people offered themselves

644
00:24:30,789 --> 00:24:29,039
have you ever had an experience or a

645
00:24:33,350 --> 00:24:30,799
citing yourself of anything you couldn't

646
00:24:36,470 --> 00:24:33,360
explain i have not and neither did john

647
00:24:38,789 --> 00:24:36,480
mack and in a way he said it helped him

648
00:24:39,909 --> 00:24:38,799
uh he was disappointed of course he's he

649
00:24:41,029 --> 00:24:39,919
wished that

650
00:24:42,470 --> 00:24:41,039
he could

651
00:24:45,350 --> 00:24:42,480
have an experience i guess he was

652
00:24:48,390 --> 00:24:45,360
curious but uh or at least a sighting

653
00:24:50,549 --> 00:24:48,400
which he never had um but then he

654
00:24:52,390 --> 00:24:50,559
reflected that you know he was then pure

655
00:24:54,310 --> 00:24:52,400
to

656
00:24:56,789 --> 00:24:54,320
pursue it as a researcher and no one

657
00:24:58,870 --> 00:24:56,799
could accuse him of you know

658
00:25:00,230 --> 00:24:58,880
having an agenda because he himself you

659
00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:00,240
know wanted to validate his own

660
00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:02,640
experience he came to it completely as

661
00:25:06,710 --> 00:25:04,880
an outsider and i did too my whole

662
00:25:08,789 --> 00:25:06,720
career was as a new york times

663
00:25:11,110 --> 00:25:08,799
investigative reporter

664
00:25:13,669 --> 00:25:11,120
i've never had an abduction encounter

665
00:25:15,750 --> 00:25:13,679
i've never spotted a ufo

666
00:25:18,230 --> 00:25:15,760
maybe i'd like to i'd like to think i

667
00:25:19,750 --> 00:25:18,240
would like to see it but um

668
00:25:21,750 --> 00:25:19,760
it doesn't happen to everybody and

669
00:25:23,110 --> 00:25:21,760
that's part of the mystery who are these

670
00:25:25,110 --> 00:25:23,120
people who are

671
00:25:27,190 --> 00:25:25,120
you know singled out

672
00:25:29,269 --> 00:25:27,200
and why are some people

673
00:25:31,190 --> 00:25:29,279
uh you know part of this mystery and

674
00:25:32,070 --> 00:25:31,200
others not that's worth investigating

675
00:25:33,909 --> 00:25:32,080
too

676
00:25:35,830 --> 00:25:33,919
you know researchers said not just the

677
00:25:37,669 --> 00:25:35,840
people who are you know who see

678
00:25:39,510 --> 00:25:37,679
themselves as abductees but what about

679
00:25:42,789 --> 00:25:39,520
all the others why aren't they

680
00:25:45,510 --> 00:25:42,799
part of that so um but to answer your

681
00:25:46,710 --> 00:25:45,520
question no i i'm pure like john mac is

682
00:25:47,990 --> 00:25:46,720
pure

683
00:25:49,350 --> 00:25:48,000
know that that's good to hear and like

684
00:25:51,190 --> 00:25:49,360
you say it gives you that fresh

685
00:25:52,630 --> 00:25:51,200
perspective and unbiased look at the

686
00:25:55,190 --> 00:25:52,640
subject as well

687
00:25:56,710 --> 00:25:55,200
now we i at the podcast received a lot

688
00:25:58,149 --> 00:25:56,720
of questions for you but just given the

689
00:25:59,430 --> 00:25:58,159
time i've got ralph i've just picked a

690
00:26:01,750 --> 00:25:59,440
couple of them out

691
00:26:03,590 --> 00:26:01,760
the first one was from jake and he has

692
00:26:04,789 --> 00:26:03,600
read the book and he said he loved it

693
00:26:06,870 --> 00:26:04,799
and he wants to know if you could

694
00:26:08,950 --> 00:26:06,880
elaborate on john mack's meeting with

695
00:26:11,110 --> 00:26:08,960
the dalai lama at all he found that

696
00:26:13,909 --> 00:26:11,120
chapter particularly fascinating and he

697
00:26:15,830 --> 00:26:13,919
was a bit miffed it ended so soon

698
00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:15,840
yes i had a lot of it you asked me what

699
00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:17,760
i didn't put in the book i had a lot

700
00:26:23,110 --> 00:26:19,760
more on that meeting with the dalai lama

701
00:26:26,230 --> 00:26:23,120
because um in 1992 john mack had the

702
00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:26,240
opportunity to join a few

703
00:26:32,549 --> 00:26:29,840
fellow psychiatrists and researchers um

704
00:26:34,710 --> 00:26:32,559
high-level professional people

705
00:26:37,350 --> 00:26:34,720
on a on a visit to the dalai lama in

706
00:26:38,470 --> 00:26:37,360
india a dalai lama you know being a very

707
00:26:41,190 --> 00:26:38,480
spiritual

708
00:26:44,230 --> 00:26:41,200
leader was interested in this phenomenon

709
00:26:47,029 --> 00:26:44,240
and um he invited these people quite uh

710
00:26:49,029 --> 00:26:47,039
confidentially secretly to meet with him

711
00:26:50,950 --> 00:26:49,039
so john mack went and he had a

712
00:26:53,830 --> 00:26:50,960
transcript made of the

713
00:26:54,549 --> 00:26:53,840
weeks or the week of discussions and i

714
00:26:56,789 --> 00:26:54,559
put

715
00:26:59,269 --> 00:26:56,799
as much of that in my book as i could

716
00:27:01,190 --> 00:26:59,279
but not not everything some of it was

717
00:27:02,710 --> 00:27:01,200
repetitious but

718
00:27:05,669 --> 00:27:02,720
what was interesting

719
00:27:09,590 --> 00:27:05,679
is that um

720
00:27:10,950 --> 00:27:09,600
the the group of uh visitors included uh

721
00:27:12,549 --> 00:27:10,960
you know people from somewhat different

722
00:27:15,110 --> 00:27:12,559
academic backgrounds and they were

723
00:27:16,950 --> 00:27:15,120
examining the phenomenon and answering

724
00:27:18,549 --> 00:27:16,960
the dalai lama's questions from from

725
00:27:20,710 --> 00:27:18,559
different points of view and they're

726
00:27:22,789 --> 00:27:20,720
trying to figure out uh

727
00:27:24,630 --> 00:27:22,799
you know how how this phenomenon came to

728
00:27:25,990 --> 00:27:24,640
be was it real

729
00:27:28,630 --> 00:27:26,000
um

730
00:27:30,230 --> 00:27:28,640
can it be proven all these questions and

731
00:27:31,909 --> 00:27:30,240
and what were the things that the dalai

732
00:27:33,350 --> 00:27:31,919
lama had experienced

733
00:27:36,230 --> 00:27:33,360
in his culture

734
00:27:37,430 --> 00:27:36,240
and and in his life that you know would

735
00:27:39,269 --> 00:27:37,440
would um

736
00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:39,279
parallel what these researchers had

737
00:27:43,269 --> 00:27:41,520
found and it turned out the dalai lama

738
00:27:45,909 --> 00:27:43,279
was um

739
00:27:48,389 --> 00:27:45,919
very familiar with these encounters they

740
00:27:51,190 --> 00:27:48,399
had somewhat different terminology

741
00:27:52,870 --> 00:27:51,200
in you know in buddhism um

742
00:27:55,350 --> 00:27:52,880
but um

743
00:27:57,029 --> 00:27:55,360
there were these there was a spiritual

744
00:28:01,269 --> 00:27:57,039
realm that they recognized that

745
00:28:03,669 --> 00:28:01,279
penetrated uh our reality and that he

746
00:28:06,870 --> 00:28:03,679
the dalai lama was quite familiar with

747
00:28:10,470 --> 00:28:06,880
the whole concept of small beings uh

748
00:28:11,830 --> 00:28:10,480
and um he was he was very um sympathetic

749
00:28:12,789 --> 00:28:11,840
to the accounts

750
00:28:14,149 --> 00:28:12,799
um

751
00:28:16,630 --> 00:28:14,159
and it was just interesting he spoke

752
00:28:18,549 --> 00:28:16,640
some english the dalai lama became a

753
00:28:20,230 --> 00:28:18,559
broken english and his questions were

754
00:28:22,310 --> 00:28:20,240
very good and

755
00:28:24,549 --> 00:28:22,320
and the efforts to come to you know

756
00:28:27,269 --> 00:28:24,559
agreement on what this phenomenon was

757
00:28:29,029 --> 00:28:27,279
was really quite fascinating so

758
00:28:30,710 --> 00:28:29,039
uh and i'm i think i'm the only one who

759
00:28:32,230 --> 00:28:30,720
ever reported on that meeting because it

760
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:32,240
was never publicly

761
00:28:36,870 --> 00:28:34,720
uh you know announced

762
00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:36,880
do you think there's something to that

763
00:28:41,590 --> 00:28:39,440
religious aspect of the the phenomenon

764
00:28:43,590 --> 00:28:41,600
or whatever's going on we hear that in

765
00:28:45,430 --> 00:28:43,600
the halls of the the us government there

766
00:28:47,510 --> 00:28:45,440
are people who push back against this

767
00:28:48,710 --> 00:28:47,520
subject and the upcoming task force

768
00:28:50,549 --> 00:28:48,720
report that i will ask you about in a

769
00:28:52,950 --> 00:28:50,559
little while um

770
00:28:54,789 --> 00:28:52,960
because they believe it to be angelic or

771
00:28:56,230 --> 00:28:54,799
demonic in nature and it's something

772
00:28:57,669 --> 00:28:56,240
that we shouldn't be discussing do you

773
00:29:00,950 --> 00:28:57,679
think through different religions this

774
00:29:02,549 --> 00:29:00,960
phenomenon is reported on in its own way

775
00:29:04,230 --> 00:29:02,559
yeah i think i mean there are people in

776
00:29:08,470 --> 00:29:04,240
the government who don't like the

777
00:29:11,269 --> 00:29:08,480
subject um we know you know that lou uh

778
00:29:14,789 --> 00:29:11,279
luis elizondo who was the head of the

779
00:29:19,669 --> 00:29:16,710
atip

780
00:29:21,190 --> 00:29:19,679
aerospace threat identification program

781
00:29:23,110 --> 00:29:21,200
resigned because he wasn't getting

782
00:29:25,830 --> 00:29:23,120
enough support from the from his

783
00:29:29,110 --> 00:29:25,840
superiors at dod to continue it defense

784
00:29:30,549 --> 00:29:29,120
department so yes there's a push back

785
00:29:32,789 --> 00:29:30,559
from the government

786
00:29:35,029 --> 00:29:32,799
which is why it's taken so long to

787
00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:35,039
acknowledge uh i mean

788
00:29:39,350 --> 00:29:38,000
project blue book was shut down in 1970

789
00:29:40,789 --> 00:29:39,360
the government said you know nothing to

790
00:29:42,070 --> 00:29:40,799
see here folks

791
00:29:43,750 --> 00:29:42,080
just move on

792
00:29:45,750 --> 00:29:43,760
and we know that the government has

793
00:29:47,430 --> 00:29:45,760
secretly been continuing its research

794
00:29:49,029 --> 00:29:47,440
but never acknowledged it and now

795
00:29:50,470 --> 00:29:49,039
they're acknowledging it

796
00:29:52,389 --> 00:29:50,480
so um

797
00:29:53,590 --> 00:29:52,399
yes we we

798
00:29:55,110 --> 00:29:53,600
hear the same thing that there are

799
00:29:56,870 --> 00:29:55,120
people in the government who who are

800
00:29:58,710 --> 00:29:56,880
opposed to this

801
00:30:01,190 --> 00:29:58,720
and just to dig into that a little bit

802
00:30:02,950 --> 00:30:01,200
more ralph there's a difference between

803
00:30:05,590 --> 00:30:02,960
not liking the subject from a point of

804
00:30:07,830 --> 00:30:05,600
view of it's it's the stigma and they

805
00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:07,840
don't want to talk about ufos and what

806
00:30:11,350 --> 00:30:09,600
that may entail because they don't want

807
00:30:13,110 --> 00:30:11,360
to entertain the subject yeah i mean as

808
00:30:15,190 --> 00:30:13,120
opposed to they don't like it for those

809
00:30:17,190 --> 00:30:15,200
religious beliefs do you think that it's

810
00:30:19,590 --> 00:30:17,200
that that really causes the issue or is

811
00:30:20,470 --> 00:30:19,600
it a mixture of both

812
00:30:22,149 --> 00:30:20,480
um

813
00:30:23,990 --> 00:30:22,159
you know it's hard to know the these

814
00:30:26,389 --> 00:30:24,000
things are never on the record but we

815
00:30:28,549 --> 00:30:26,399
know from our sources that then kelty

816
00:30:31,029 --> 00:30:28,559
and efforts to investigate this to

817
00:30:32,549 --> 00:30:31,039
pursue this uh that has changed now

818
00:30:35,190 --> 00:30:32,559
maybe partly because of the new york

819
00:30:36,950 --> 00:30:35,200
times article in 2017 the government

820
00:30:39,590 --> 00:30:36,960
sees that people are hungry for

821
00:30:42,710 --> 00:30:39,600
information that there's really not a

822
00:30:44,549 --> 00:30:42,720
downside to uh coming forward with

823
00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:44,559
acknowledgement at least that there's

824
00:30:48,230 --> 00:30:46,240
something worth investigating here so

825
00:30:50,389 --> 00:30:48,240
there's now new directives

826
00:30:53,909 --> 00:30:50,399
to navy pilots uh

827
00:30:55,990 --> 00:30:53,919
to uh to report these uh encounters

828
00:30:58,470 --> 00:30:56,000
which they do now and which are part of

829
00:31:00,389 --> 00:30:58,480
the record and this task force report uh

830
00:31:02,789 --> 00:31:00,399
to the public is supposed to come out

831
00:31:05,590 --> 00:31:02,799
you know later this week later this year

832
00:31:07,669 --> 00:31:05,600
and maybe delayed but um

833
00:31:09,029 --> 00:31:07,679
so um

834
00:31:11,990 --> 00:31:09,039
i think things are moving in the right

835
00:31:13,909 --> 00:31:12,000
direction maybe maybe too slowly for you

836
00:31:16,389 --> 00:31:13,919
know my taste other people's taste but

837
00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:16,399
it's moving

838
00:31:20,789 --> 00:31:18,720
graham has the question do you feel as

839
00:31:22,630 --> 00:31:20,799
though you've taken the subject of uaps

840
00:31:24,149 --> 00:31:22,640
as far as it will go for the moment or

841
00:31:25,269 --> 00:31:24,159
do you have unfinished business you

842
00:31:27,350 --> 00:31:25,279
would like to write about and have

843
00:31:29,669 --> 00:31:27,360
published well i i would never say i've

844
00:31:31,430 --> 00:31:29,679
taken it as far as it can go is there's

845
00:31:32,389 --> 00:31:31,440
still more but again everything has to

846
00:31:36,389 --> 00:31:32,399
be

847
00:31:38,710 --> 00:31:36,399
um carefully vetted and and

848
00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:38,720
documented and we only you know we only

849
00:31:42,070 --> 00:31:40,399
want to deal with on the record sources

850
00:31:45,669 --> 00:31:42,080
which makes it very difficult it's too

851
00:31:47,590 --> 00:31:45,679
easy to use you know anonymous sources

852
00:31:49,110 --> 00:31:47,600
which i think reduce the credibility of

853
00:31:51,269 --> 00:31:49,120
an article you can say you know a

854
00:31:53,669 --> 00:31:51,279
high-level government official said

855
00:31:56,149 --> 00:31:53,679
something and it doesn't carry the same

856
00:31:58,070 --> 00:31:56,159
weight as putting a name onto it so

857
00:32:00,630 --> 00:31:58,080
until we can do that until we can get

858
00:32:02,870 --> 00:32:00,640
people on the record um we're not going

859
00:32:05,669 --> 00:32:02,880
to report on on certain things

860
00:32:08,230 --> 00:32:05,679
but um you know we're we're working all

861
00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:08,240
the time and you know we've got our

862
00:32:13,990 --> 00:32:10,240
sources of information and

863
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:14,000
there's developments all the time

864
00:32:21,590 --> 00:32:19,430
peter has a question that given the

865
00:32:23,350 --> 00:32:21,600
knowledge of the subject that ralph has

866
00:32:25,750 --> 00:32:23,360
and the so far unpublished source

867
00:32:27,750 --> 00:32:25,760
material what is ralph's personal view

868
00:32:30,149 --> 00:32:27,760
on the possibility of off-world

869
00:32:31,029 --> 00:32:30,159
technology being present here

870
00:32:33,190 --> 00:32:31,039
well

871
00:32:34,870 --> 00:32:33,200
you know that's the uh that that's the

872
00:32:37,950 --> 00:32:34,880
big question if

873
00:32:39,590 --> 00:32:37,960
um if these objects are do are acting

874
00:32:42,710 --> 00:32:39,600
aerodynamically

875
00:32:45,110 --> 00:32:42,720
like not not like no technology we have

876
00:32:48,310 --> 00:32:45,120
the us has and probably

877
00:32:50,389 --> 00:32:48,320
no technology that our adversaries have

878
00:32:51,750 --> 00:32:50,399
say the russians are chinese

879
00:32:53,430 --> 00:32:51,760
um

880
00:32:55,750 --> 00:32:53,440
then you say well what are we left with

881
00:32:57,669 --> 00:32:55,760
if they're not ours and they're not our

882
00:32:59,909 --> 00:32:57,679
adversaries what are they

883
00:33:02,230 --> 00:32:59,919
so far the government won't answer that

884
00:33:03,990 --> 00:33:02,240
question the obvious answer

885
00:33:06,630 --> 00:33:04,000
logically would seem to be well if it's

886
00:33:09,110 --> 00:33:06,640
not earthly it's got to be off-earthly

887
00:33:12,149 --> 00:33:09,120
but it's very hard to get a government

888
00:33:13,909 --> 00:33:12,159
um official to say that on the record

889
00:33:16,470 --> 00:33:13,919
privately they say that

890
00:33:17,990 --> 00:33:16,480
um yes that's the natural conclusion

891
00:33:19,269 --> 00:33:18,000
that if they don't you know if they're

892
00:33:21,509 --> 00:33:19,279
not from the earth they've got to be

893
00:33:23,830 --> 00:33:21,519
from nada not on the earth

894
00:33:25,669 --> 00:33:23,840
but everyone's very afraid to say that

895
00:33:27,350 --> 00:33:25,679
officially they want to just say it one

896
00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:27,360
step at a time they don't they don't

897
00:33:31,029 --> 00:33:29,600
think it's ours it's not ours

898
00:33:33,669 --> 00:33:31,039
by all accounts

899
00:33:35,590 --> 00:33:33,679
um and it'd be very unlikely that it

900
00:33:36,710 --> 00:33:35,600
would be our adversaries and that's how

901
00:33:37,590 --> 00:33:36,720
they leave it

902
00:33:39,110 --> 00:33:37,600
um

903
00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:39,120
so you know as i say there's a

904
00:33:42,549 --> 00:33:40,720
difference between what you hear from

905
00:33:44,630 --> 00:33:42,559
people and what you're able to report

906
00:33:46,389 --> 00:33:44,640
and what people will stand behind and we

907
00:33:49,830 --> 00:33:46,399
have to take it one step at a time and

908
00:33:53,750 --> 00:33:49,840
only report what we can document with uh

909
00:33:55,350 --> 00:33:53,760
with you know with names on the record

910
00:33:56,950 --> 00:33:55,360
just before i let you go ralph it's been

911
00:33:58,870 --> 00:33:56,960
great speaking with you i've got a bit

912
00:34:00,149 --> 00:33:58,880
of a quick fire round uh i'd like to get

913
00:34:01,750 --> 00:34:00,159
your thoughts on just a couple of

914
00:34:03,590 --> 00:34:01,760
subjects that we've not quite touched on

915
00:34:05,350 --> 00:34:03,600
yet within the body of the podcast and

916
00:34:07,029 --> 00:34:05,360
you can see as little or as much as you

917
00:34:09,589 --> 00:34:07,039
want about each of them

918
00:34:12,310 --> 00:34:09,599
um so the first one is your thoughts on

919
00:34:15,109 --> 00:34:12,320
last week's leaked photos and video

920
00:34:17,430 --> 00:34:15,119
footage of the pyramid ufos uh i'm aware

921
00:34:19,030 --> 00:34:17,440
of it will you i'm looking into it like

922
00:34:20,710 --> 00:34:19,040
a lot of other people looking into it

923
00:34:22,470 --> 00:34:20,720
you know not ready to pronounce on it

924
00:34:24,629 --> 00:34:22,480
yet but i'm very aware of it it's

925
00:34:27,190 --> 00:34:24,639
interesting but it's going to take some

926
00:34:29,990 --> 00:34:27,200
more reporting

927
00:34:31,669 --> 00:34:30,000
the next one is bob lazar and his story

928
00:34:33,750 --> 00:34:31,679
i don't know i haven't investigated that

929
00:34:35,829 --> 00:34:33,760
myself i know incredible people like

930
00:34:37,990 --> 00:34:35,839
robert bigelow have invested you know a

931
00:34:40,069 --> 00:34:38,000
lot of credibility their own credibility

932
00:34:42,790 --> 00:34:40,079
in bob lazor he told a very

933
00:34:45,589 --> 00:34:42,800
uh provocative sensational astonishing

934
00:34:48,389 --> 00:34:45,599
story about you know working on

935
00:34:50,310 --> 00:34:48,399
reverse engineered technology

936
00:34:52,629 --> 00:34:50,320
i i haven't done enough of my own

937
00:34:55,669 --> 00:34:52,639
research to know but i know it's it's

938
00:34:58,950 --> 00:34:55,679
not a settled question

939
00:35:02,470 --> 00:34:58,960
do you prefer the term ufo or uap

940
00:35:05,510 --> 00:35:02,480
you know i think it's silly that the

941
00:35:08,470 --> 00:35:05,520
government has shifted from ufo to uap

942
00:35:10,390 --> 00:35:08,480
um i think ua ufo has a kind of a stigma

943
00:35:12,069 --> 00:35:10,400
to it just like you know flying saucers

944
00:35:14,829 --> 00:35:12,079
had

945
00:35:16,710 --> 00:35:14,839
but ufo is a perfectly good description

946
00:35:18,870 --> 00:35:16,720
unidentified we don't know what they are

947
00:35:20,069 --> 00:35:18,880
they fly and we don't know what they are

948
00:35:23,190 --> 00:35:20,079
um

949
00:35:25,190 --> 00:35:23,200
unidentified aerial phenomena not much

950
00:35:27,670 --> 00:35:25,200
different it's it's a new word maybe the

951
00:35:30,150 --> 00:35:27,680
government feels you know more secure

952
00:35:32,710 --> 00:35:30,160
saying that than ufo which has maybe

953
00:35:35,030 --> 00:35:32,720
been tainted by popular entertainment

954
00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:35,040
but i think it's kind of silly i i stick

955
00:35:40,550 --> 00:35:36,560
with ufo it's a perfectly good

956
00:35:43,109 --> 00:35:40,560
description because it says unidentified

957
00:35:44,870 --> 00:35:43,119
any thoughts on skinwalker ranch yeah i

958
00:35:47,510 --> 00:35:44,880
was very taken with what i read about

959
00:35:49,430 --> 00:35:47,520
skinwalker ranch i did a story on robert

960
00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:49,440
bigelow for the new york times i got

961
00:35:54,550 --> 00:35:52,240
into the whole skinwalker question

962
00:35:56,870 --> 00:35:54,560
because he he operated it free bought it

963
00:35:59,670 --> 00:35:56,880
and operated it for a while they found a

964
00:36:01,670 --> 00:35:59,680
lot of strange phenomenon there

965
00:36:03,910 --> 00:36:01,680
uh phenomena

966
00:36:06,230 --> 00:36:03,920
uh which you know astounded me when i

967
00:36:08,310 --> 00:36:06,240
read about it it was written about by

968
00:36:11,109 --> 00:36:08,320
credible people like george knapp

969
00:36:13,910 --> 00:36:11,119
um there was footage made

970
00:36:15,670 --> 00:36:13,920
um i think there's

971
00:36:19,349 --> 00:36:15,680
it's it's an open question i would not

972
00:36:20,710 --> 00:36:19,359
debunk it at all as as impossible i

973
00:36:24,550 --> 00:36:20,720
think it's uh

974
00:36:26,230 --> 00:36:24,560
uh intriguing i i i you know give weight

975
00:36:28,550 --> 00:36:26,240
to the people who've come out with these

976
00:36:30,870 --> 00:36:28,560
stories that calm kelleher

977
00:36:33,510 --> 00:36:30,880
robert bigelow's you know right-hand man

978
00:36:35,589 --> 00:36:33,520
and bigelow himself um and people who

979
00:36:37,750 --> 00:36:35,599
investigated it you know gave very

980
00:36:41,030 --> 00:36:37,760
credible accounts of very strange things

981
00:36:42,870 --> 00:36:41,040
that happened there so um

982
00:36:47,109 --> 00:36:42,880
i would like to know more but i

983
00:36:52,069 --> 00:36:48,790
two more things ralph the first one

984
00:36:53,190 --> 00:36:52,079
being the upcoming uap task force report

985
00:36:55,349 --> 00:36:53,200
yeah it's

986
00:36:56,790 --> 00:36:55,359
we hear you know as has been reported

987
00:36:59,510 --> 00:36:56,800
it's going to be delayed it's not going

988
00:37:01,510 --> 00:36:59,520
to come out 180 days after the passage

989
00:37:03,030 --> 00:37:01,520
of the defense authorization act there's

990
00:37:04,470 --> 00:37:03,040
too much yet to do

991
00:37:05,990 --> 00:37:04,480
so it'll be delayed we don't know how

992
00:37:07,349 --> 00:37:06,000
much will be public how much will be

993
00:37:09,910 --> 00:37:07,359
classified

994
00:37:11,829 --> 00:37:09,920
i think a lot of questions about it but

995
00:37:14,470 --> 00:37:11,839
i think at some point we'll see it and i

996
00:37:17,670 --> 00:37:14,480
i'm hoping it'll be interesting uh but

997
00:37:19,910 --> 00:37:17,680
we don't know too much at this point

998
00:37:21,829 --> 00:37:19,920
can i just ask you to elaborate on one

999
00:37:24,870 --> 00:37:21,839
thing what would you like to see one

1000
00:37:28,310 --> 00:37:24,880
thing realistically within that report

1001
00:37:30,470 --> 00:37:28,320
well i'd like to see the government um

1002
00:37:31,910 --> 00:37:30,480
you know reveal more about what it knows

1003
00:37:34,230 --> 00:37:31,920
of these objects

1004
00:37:36,710 --> 00:37:34,240
which it's been tracking and navy

1005
00:37:40,150 --> 00:37:36,720
you know pilots and ships have been

1006
00:37:41,270 --> 00:37:40,160
recording on you know various media

1007
00:37:43,910 --> 00:37:41,280
um

1008
00:37:44,870 --> 00:37:43,920
you know their presence they they

1009
00:37:46,630 --> 00:37:44,880
fleer

1010
00:37:48,630 --> 00:37:46,640
images there are

1011
00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:48,640
radar tracks um

1012
00:37:52,390 --> 00:37:50,000
and i would like to hear from the

1013
00:37:53,349 --> 00:37:52,400
government what what they've uh we've

1014
00:37:54,870 --> 00:37:53,359
you know

1015
00:37:57,109 --> 00:37:54,880
documented about this particularly

1016
00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:57,119
underwater stuff the so-called usos i

1017
00:38:00,390 --> 00:37:58,560
mean these things seem to operate

1018
00:38:02,390 --> 00:38:00,400
underwater as well that's astounding

1019
00:38:03,750 --> 00:38:02,400
they're multimedia

1020
00:38:07,109 --> 00:38:03,760
um

1021
00:38:08,230 --> 00:38:07,119
objects so it's not just the skies so

1022
00:38:09,910 --> 00:38:08,240
um

1023
00:38:12,390 --> 00:38:09,920
i would like to you know to know more

1024
00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:12,400
about what what the government uh has

1025
00:38:17,030 --> 00:38:15,200
has documented

1026
00:38:19,190 --> 00:38:17,040
and the last one ralph is what does

1027
00:38:21,109 --> 00:38:19,200
disclosure mean to you well it has you

1028
00:38:22,950 --> 00:38:21,119
know it's kind of a squishy term i think

1029
00:38:24,550 --> 00:38:22,960
most people take it to mean the full

1030
00:38:25,349 --> 00:38:24,560
opening of

1031
00:38:32,950 --> 00:38:25,359
uh

1032
00:38:34,310 --> 00:38:32,960
you know ufos uap possibly alien

1033
00:38:36,630 --> 00:38:34,320
intelligence

1034
00:38:39,190 --> 00:38:36,640
um i think it's unlikely given the

1035
00:38:40,710 --> 00:38:39,200
government's record so far i think

1036
00:38:43,589 --> 00:38:40,720
certain things the government wants to

1037
00:38:44,550 --> 00:38:43,599
keep uh hidden in terms of you know

1038
00:38:45,670 --> 00:38:44,560
giving

1039
00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:45,680
um

1040
00:38:49,349 --> 00:38:48,000
you know information to uh earthly

1041
00:38:50,710 --> 00:38:49,359
adversaries

1042
00:38:55,829 --> 00:38:50,720
um

1043
00:38:57,990 --> 00:38:55,839
it's unlikely that the governor just

1044
00:39:01,270 --> 00:38:58,000
throw open its books and say we're gonna

1045
00:39:03,190 --> 00:39:01,280
tell you everything we know um so that's

1046
00:39:05,349 --> 00:39:03,200
what disclosure means to some people i

1047
00:39:07,510 --> 00:39:05,359
think that's unrealistic i think

1048
00:39:09,750 --> 00:39:07,520
more disclosure probably is a better way

1049
00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:09,760
to describe it and i think that that is

1050
00:39:12,950 --> 00:39:11,280
more realistic

1051
00:39:14,550 --> 00:39:12,960
ralph just before you go can you remind

1052
00:39:16,150 --> 00:39:14,560
the listeners how they can follow you

1053
00:39:21,109 --> 00:39:16,160
follow your work and also obviously by

1054
00:39:26,230 --> 00:39:21,119
the way yeah um my website is www ralph

1055
00:39:31,190 --> 00:39:29,270
dot com um and there are links to the

1056
00:39:33,270 --> 00:39:31,200
book there there's uh

1057
00:39:34,310 --> 00:39:33,280
uh appearances i've made talks i've

1058
00:39:37,109 --> 00:39:34,320
given

1059
00:39:39,109 --> 00:39:37,119
my biography the book is available on

1060
00:39:40,870 --> 00:39:39,119
amazon

1061
00:39:42,150 --> 00:39:40,880
independent bookstores i love it if

1062
00:39:43,670 --> 00:39:42,160
you'd buy it from an independent

1063
00:39:45,510 --> 00:39:43,680
bookstore because they're struggling

1064
00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:45,520
they need the business

1065
00:39:50,710 --> 00:39:48,240
it's also on kindle

1066
00:39:53,190 --> 00:39:50,720
so you can get it instantly download it

1067
00:39:54,150 --> 00:39:53,200
for your iphone or ipad

1068
00:39:55,670 --> 00:39:54,160
and

1069
00:39:57,910 --> 00:39:55,680
i hope soon i think it'll be on

1070
00:39:59,990 --> 00:39:57,920
audiobook so if you were writing in your

1071
00:40:03,430 --> 00:40:00,000
car and you want to listen uh at some

1072
00:40:04,950 --> 00:40:03,440
point it'll be available there so um

1073
00:40:05,589 --> 00:40:04,960
should be no problem getting a hold of

1074
00:40:08,470 --> 00:40:05,599
it

1075
00:40:10,309 --> 00:40:08,480
you and i would love to have you back on

1076
00:40:12,790 --> 00:40:10,319
down the line to discuss the topic a

1077
00:40:14,870 --> 00:40:12,800
little bit thanks andy a real pleasure

1078
00:40:16,870 --> 00:40:14,880
that is all for this week's show thank

1079
00:40:18,870 --> 00:40:16,880
you very much for listening please

1080
00:40:21,510 --> 00:40:18,880
remember to leave the podcaster review

1081
00:40:23,829 --> 00:40:21,520
on your chosen platform you can like

1082
00:40:25,750 --> 00:40:23,839
retweet and subscribe that would all be

1083
00:40:27,910 --> 00:40:25,760
very much appreciated the shows are

1084
00:40:29,430 --> 00:40:27,920
being uploaded onto youtube as we speak

1085
00:40:31,990 --> 00:40:29,440
more and more you can sign up at

1086
00:40:34,710 --> 00:40:32,000
patreon.com forward slash that ufo

1087
00:40:36,870 --> 00:40:34,720
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1088
00:40:39,750 --> 00:40:36,880
please get in touch on twitter facebook

1089
00:40:43,990 --> 00:40:39,760
instagram that ufo podcast of course on

1090
00:40:45,670 --> 00:40:44,000
twitter ufo uap am and again folks as

1091
00:40:48,180 --> 00:40:45,680
always keep looking up you never know

1092
00:41:02,950 --> 00:40:48,190
what you might see

1093
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:11,109
was

1094
00:41:24,150 --> 00:41:14,360
but i'd had some champagne

1095
00:41:27,270 --> 00:41:25,670
i can't imagine how it could have been

1096
00:41:31,110 --> 00:41:27,280
any better i got to the top of the

1097
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:47,270
[Music]

1098
00:41:50,790 --> 00:41:49,349
and everything was red i helped my boys

1099
00:41:59,250 --> 00:41:50,800
they thought this was nice they thought

1100
00:41:59,260 --> 00:42:13,349
[Music]

1101
00:42:13,359 --> 00:42:19,410
and what's that

1102
00:42:29,109 --> 00:42:23,349
[Music]

1103
00:42:29,119 --> 00:42:32,680
your serious

1104
00:42:56,180 --> 00:42:44,120
[Music]

1105
00:43:02,440 --> 00:42:56,190
it wasn't

1106
00:43:33,470 --> 00:43:27,300
[Music]